"Why not first pick up nickels and dimes on the ground?": Interview with Rick Larsen and Mark Kirk (1)Rick Larsen and Mark Kirk are co-chairmen of the US-China Working Group under the US House of Representatives. They co-founded the Group in June 2005. The two congressmen visited China in January 2006. This has been their first journey to China as cofounders since the establishment of the Group. In their eyes China is opportunity rather than threat. Obviously they belong to the minority on the Capitol Hill where the majority of senators and congressmen still view China quite negatively.
"I am perfectly comfortable with my position on China"
Tang Yong: How long have you been a congressman?
Larsen: I was elected in 2000 and took my seat on January 2001 at the age of 35. Now I am 40. So I have been a congressman for five years and two months.
Tang Yong: It's quite new.
Larsen: Relatively new, Yeah.
Tang Yong: I know some congressmen have been here for 50 years.
Larsen: Yeah, one is here for 50 years. There are other members of congress from the Washington State who have been here since 1978. I would do a quick math. It is 28 years.
Tang Yong: Oh, my Gosh! So as a newcomer here, maybe you have quite different perspectives than other senior congressmen on China issues?
Larsen: I don't know if I have different focus than folks who have been here longer. I think my perspectives on the Sino-American relations are partly driven by Washington State location on the Pacific as well as Washington State history and historical relationship with China, which has been positive.
Tang Yong: What changes have taken place regarding the attitudes of the Capitol Hill toward China since you became a congressman? For example, in the past how many China-related resolutions were passed and how many today?
Larsen: I don't have the number of resolutions that were passed in the last 6 years versus the previous 6 years. I think that in the Congress recently there is an increase of anxiety and frustration about the US China relations. That frustration and anxiety are largely driven by factors in the global economy, having to do with the huge trade deficit with China, having to do with the current currency revaluation issue, having to do with our company and the US' desire to trade and export to China on a fair basis.
The increase of anxiety and frustration in the Congress comes largely because some people perceive that the United States and the United States economy is getting what we call a short end stake. We are putting out a lot but we are not getting a lot back. That is the perception. Right now in the Congress there are a lot of questions about the role of China, about if China plays fair or not. It is an honest assessment.
Tang Yong: What word will you use to describe China today compared with the past?
Larsen: Good question! I am trying to think of a good word here to describe China. (Long pause). I want to say this is not my word. Generally speaking, I think people would say aggressive.
Tang Yong: In the past, say 20 years ago, what would be the most frequent word to describe China?
Larsen: 20 years ago? (Pause). I would pick two words, one would be young and the other would beĦI am trying to get a word like unknown, like we don't know.
Tang Yong: Invisible?
Larsen: Not invisible. Like we don't know China.
Tang Yong: Low profile?
Larsen: Maybe low profile. But like we don't know what we can conclude about China. Yeah, maybe uncertain is the word.
Tang Yong: So you use the word uncertain to describe the past China and you use the word aggressive to describe the present China. Why do you choose the word aggressive?
Larsen: Again, I want to clarify that this is a general description (on the Capitol Hill). My word will be different. My word for China is opportunity, opportunity for US companies, opportunity for US students, opportunity for our militaries to work together on key issues of national security. My personal opinion is that there are many opportunities that we have with China to work together. But on the Capitol Hill the perception is that China is aggressive, aggressive about taking United States jobs, aggressive about taking American produced software, aggressive about its military. I think that is generally right now what people on the Capitol Hill perceive about China. I don't think it is a totally accurate perception, but if I would go around and talk with my colleagues, I think they would say this.
Tang Yong: So the majority of the congressmen would agree with the word aggressive.
Larsen: I think so.
Tang Yong: So you belong to the minority?
Larsen: Yeah. (Laugh).
Tang Yong: How do you feel about being a minority on the Capitol Hill? Are you feeling isolated?
Larsen: No, not at all. I am comfortable with that. There is a saying in the US that everybody sees what he or she sees from where he or she sits on the table. From my seat of the table is Washington State. Washington State has a long history of trade with China and the first Boeing engineer was Chinese to help build the first Boeing airplanes back to 1916s. Our political leaders in the State have always see China as an opportunity for Washington State. So I am perfectly comfortable with my position on China.
"The conversation about China is becoming bigger and bigger"
Tang Yong: Do you often argue with other congressmen on China issues?
Larsen: Argue is a stronger word than what I think. I would debate on China. We have tried to debate on China intensely about its defense budget, its military modernization, China's role on our overall trade deficit, what China is really trying to do with its economic programs. We talk among ourselves, but one reason why Mark Kirk and I credit with US China Working Group is that we could find a way not only to talk among ourselves but to invite the Chinese into the conservation, to invite leaders of China into the conservation of what is China trying to do rather than having a guess. Why not go to the Chinese and give the Chinese an opportunity to tell us what they are thinking?
(Mark Kirk comes into the conversation)
Kirk: Nihaoma ( In Chinese)
Tang Yong: Nihao( in Chinese).
Larson: We just talked about what one word most members of congress would use to describe China.
Kirk: Apprehension.
Larson: Mine is aggressive. Somewhat similar.
Tang Yong: You said you debate with other congressmen on China issues. What is the result of the debate?
Larsen: More debate.
Tang Yong: Does the debate have anything to do with the resolutions regarding China?
Larsen: What we are trying to do is create this room and congressmen come here to debate about Chinese issues that come before us. We are going to walk out of the room with the same ideas and the same thought but we will be more educated about China. When we get to vote, we vote yes or no, we will not vote in between. So you will try to change the language of the resolution before it is voted.
Tang Yong: So it seems impossible for you to influence and change the thinking of other congressmen on China issues since you all represent different states?
Larsen: The best way to influence congressmen is to send them to China, in my view, and spend ten days there like we did.
Tang Yong: My sense is that every state has its own agenda. Some states like Washington State have big companies like Boeing and Microsoft, which may sell a lot of airplanes and software to China. So their economic relations with China are very close. But some other agriculture and textile based states like Northern Carolina have much less to export to China, so their economic relations with China are much less close and it is natural for their federal congressmen to take much more hostile stances toward China.
Larsen: I would agree as I said, it depends on where you sit on the table. The table in Northern Carolina and Maine is a lot different from where you sit in Illinois or in Washington State. That is a truth.
Tang Yong: So it is difficult for the US China Working Group to change opinions on the Capitol Hill.
Kirk: First of all, US China Working Group has people from many different states. It has forty different congressmen. They are all the way from Florida to Seattle. We come to the table with people who would all agree in general with one thing: China is the most important foreign policy priority for the future of the United States. I think the Group has already made a difference because we go deep into the dialogue here.
It is very important to work with China, not about human rights, not about Taiwan, but about avian flu. It is a critical issue with the Chinese coming to the table with a lot of expertise and knowledge since it broke out in China. Foreign policy dialogue with China is like a small family talking, a father and a mother and one Child. Our job is to make this dialogue bigger and bigger so it is not a small family it is ten people in the room, health people, economic people, foreign policy people, trade people. The conversation about China is becoming bigger and bigger and more and more important to the United States.
Larson: As members of congress, we have talked among ourselves about China. What the US China Working Group is trying to do is say, why should we guess what China thinks? Why not go to ask the Chinese what they think? Then we make our own judgment about that rather than make judgment about what we think what the Chinese might think.
"China is becoming more important to everybody"
Tang Yong: In early 2006 there are a number of congressional exchanges between US and China. Sheng Huaren, China NPC Standing Committee vice chairman and secretary general, talked in Hawaii with Ted Stevens, president pro tempore of the US Senate and chairman of the US Senate-China NPC Parliamentary Group. Then you two visited China. Then Max Baucus, the Ranking Democratic Member of the US Senate Committee on Finance was leading a delegation to China. Murkowski, Chair of Subcommittee on East Asian and Pacific Affairs, US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, was also leading a delegation to China. So the exchanges are unusually intense.
Larsen: On our trip there were three members of congress. On Baucus trip there was one. On Stevens trip there were two. On Murkowski trip there was one. So among 535 senators and congressmen on the Capitol Hill, so far there are only 7 who visited China this year. They need to have more trips to China. We need to have, say 35 or 40 or 50 members of congressmen to visit China. That is what we want to do.
Tang Yong: It is still rather a lot of contact compared with the past. In the past there were hardly any congressman who would like to visit China. I am wondering why they changed their ideas so abruptly?
Kirk: Just because China is becoming more important to everybody.
Larson: When Chinese President Hu Jintao said in Science and Technology Conference in January that China would become one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world by 2015, that is an important thing we need to pay attention to. That means Chinese government is going to put a lot of money into research and development. When China launched its Shenzhou Six into the orbit, putting two astronauts into space and making China the third country in the world that has men on space, we need to pay attention to that. We could go down a list of that. That is why you could see increased interest about China among congressmen here.
"I am thinking about China issues on each of five days"
Tang Yong: How do congressmen usually learn about China?
Larsen: This is a China Reading List. It includes Fiction and nonfiction books. It includes even some Chinese classical fiction books like Journey to the West, Three Kingdoms, The True Story of Ah Q, the Dream of the Red Chamber, and Diary of a Madman. This list is for all members of the US China Working Group. So we do a lot of reading. We learn about China on the Internet as well.
Tang Yong: Do you have enough time to read so much?
Larsen: I am on the airplane a lot.
Mark: I think the most frequent way people learn about China is with CNN and Fox News and the New York Times for the policy community. Those are dominant interactions. In early days, a number of us would learn about China in Hollywood which had very very dark and evil image of China and China was a very isolated country. A lot of suspicions and hostility was coming out of the Vietnam War. Today more and more we also hear about China in business news not just in the Wall Street Journal. In the business news sections of the Seattle newspapers or Chicago newspapers, China is a very very common topic. That was not the case 20 years ago.
Tang Yong: In addition to the Reading List, what else do you read about China?
Larsen: For US China Working Group, we created two advisory groups, one is an academic advisory group with 20 university scholars from other countries and another is a business advisory group which is US based and does its job in China. We also have our own set of contacts. We learn about China by asking them questions and getting answers.
(Mark leaves from the conversation)
Tang Yong: Can you read Chinese newspapers?
Larsen: Online. I will get People's Daily and China Daily.
Tang Yong: Is there any staff translating the Chinese stuff into English for you on a daily basis?
Larsen: I don't have somebody on the staff that will do that. I have some contacts who would do that but we will not do that on a daily basis.
Tang Yong: How are you involved in China issues on a daily basis? Any changes so far over the extent of the involvement?
Larsen: I would say at a five-day workweek, I am thinking about, contemplating, strategizing or actively involved on issues related to China on each of five days. Not all day, but during the day of some point every day, I have to be thinking about the US relationship with China.
Tang Yong: How do the congressmen communicate with the White House? Do you have any institutionalized communication channels with the executive branch?
Larsen: I really can't talk about that.
Tang Yong: Do you know how many congressional groupings like the US China Working Group are there on the Capitol Hill?
Larsen: At least three in the House of Representatives. One is Interparlimentary Exchanges, one is US China Working Group and one is China Caucus. Interparlimentary Exchange's main role is to create a conversation between members of Chinese National People's Congress and members of the United States Congress. China Caucus is largely focused on security issues. US China Working Group, as Mark just mentioned, is largely focused on just educating congressmen about China issue by issue.
Tang Yong: Which foreign country enjoys the largest number of congressional groupings?
Larsen: I don't know.
Tang Yong: Which congressional grouping has the largest number of congressmen?
Larsen: It is just like a quiz. (Laugh) I don't know.
Tang Yong: Are there any congressional groupings about India and Japan?
Larsen: Yes. There is a congressional studying group on Japan and there is India Caucus. By Tang Yong , People's Daily correspondent based in Washington DC | ||
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